Curse

Mithie · May 28, 2010, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Think we all got trolled. :/

Huh.

What demographic would I be trolling, exactly?

The Botters? Anet did a better job of that than I could ever possibly hope to do.

Quote:

I dont pvp at all (never will its the most boring thing I could think of to do on a computer), so I COULD ask why people would bot in it, and the answer would be the same

See, I respect that. I respect you.

You don't find PVP enjoyable, so you don't do it.

You don't try to bot. You don't try to buy someone's rank. You just don't do it.

That's exactly what I would do.

BuD · May 28, 2010, 03:57 PM // 15:57

I would imagine this would make someone bot in PvE...

kokoninja · May 28, 2010, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Here's what I don't understand.

Titles like Drunkard and Sweet Tooth are clearly joke titles that Anet never expects anyone to achieve.

Why bother even trying for them?

The problem is that the "Mother Title" in gw includes these joke titles.
I've always, always felt GWAMM/Big Deal should have never included them. This title should have been a meta strictly for things that are achievements / progression based. VQing, Protectors, exploration. Even rep titles.

But GWAMM is important to maxing the HoM and player's Ranks in GWAMM will likely transfer to GW2 in some way, so players need to farm the bullshit titles that are meaningless to skill in this game.

Go figure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

From my point of view, at least speaking personally, if something is boring - i.e. a gameplay element that forces me to grind hours on end in order to eat virtual candy and drink virtual liquor - I just say "screw that, I've got better things to do."

I agree whole heartedly with this and everything you said.

And for the same reasons I posted above, I knew I would never bother with GWAMM because I can't be bothered to sit there clicking booze every 5 minutes or afking 9rings. That's not what I'm about. I don't find that fun. And, I don't find it fair, either.

This is just a general and outdated problem with MMO's in general, though. It's hard to balance making certain achievements difficult to obtain without making them boring / annoying. Money sinks and grinds are the only way MMO's have figured can be used in order to make players 'earn' things, and unfortunately these will always lead to botting / gold farming. Grinding titles in GW, buying gold for epic flying in WoW, etc. etc.

This is why I am looking forward to the Karma system in GW2. It may not completely eradicate the problem but it's a huge step in the right direction. Earning Karma will come naturally with playing the game, and playing in right, and difficult to bull shit through.

Hopefully, anyway.

Mithie · May 28, 2010, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Thanks for the detailed reply and discussion, Kokoninja.

Here's a couple more cents from me on the issue of titles.

Personally, I think that guild wars, being a non-subscription based game, has absolutely no need for time sinks or money sinks.

If you're done with the game, you're done with the game. Either move on to pvp, or go do something else until more content/expansion packs comes in.

I truly believe that Anet's original intention with these titles are just distractions and falls into the category of "If you get them, you get them. Most people won't".

Then, the player base made it much more important (or as far as I know, the pvp base did, but I'd imagine the same thing happened in pve) and pressured Anet to make them more substantial, which led to further inflation of their importance.

And now, things are spiraled completely out of control.

Nerel · May 28, 2010, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

See, I think here's where you and I have a case of value dissonance with the people who buy gold and pve bot.

I'm having a hard time understanding the motivations for people that do this kind of stuff.

Why do PvP'ers pay real money for ranked accounts or bot PvP?

The answer to that question is largely the same as the answer to your question above it.

And just to address the various comments you've made about the Sweet tooth title, eating candy etc... the Sweet tooth title (and the Party Animal title) unlike the Drunkard title aren't big grindy titles, they're relatively quick titles once you obtain sufficient sweets (or party items), you merely click through your stacks of consumable items and voila, you have a maxed (worthless) money title. At 100 gold per sweet tooth point it only cost you 1 million gold, give or take, so it's not really expensive either.

The Drunkard title on the other hand can be quite time consuming if you want to sit around drinking... 10,000 minutes

MelechRic · May 28, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by prism2525

I don't know you guys but my troll scanner is beeping.

C'mon, really... 5 years into it and NOW you're realizing? Pull the other one will ya?

I've been playing since E3 and I didn't really know how pervasive this problem was. I count myself as very naive about how many people were botting in PVE just to get armors and weapons with rare skins.

I know I'm a small fry with only 1k plat, 9 characters and some high-end armors on a few of those chars. I do have a rare bow which dropped with unconditional stats back in the drake farming days. Other than that I've been content to just get what I need for PVE and enjoy some RA from time to time.

I'm actually happy that most of these cheats are gone because it levels the playing field again. I'm not sure I'll ever go after any of the titles that people botted to achieve. It seems like a waste of time to do it manually and also to do it with a bot.

I only hope for GW2 that Anet recognizes that the human interaction part of the game is what attracted many of us early players. Many current titles seem geared toward an isolated play style.

kokoninja · May 28, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Thanks for the detailed reply and discussion, Kokoninja.

Here's a couple more cents from me on the issue of titles.

Personally, I think that guild wars, being a non-subscription based game, has absolutely no need for time sinks or money sinks.

If you're done with the game, you're done with the game. Either move on to pvp, or go do something else until more content/expansion packs comes in.

I truly believe that Anet's original intention with these titles are just distractions and falls into the category of "If you get them, you get them. Most people won't".

Then, the player base made it much more important (or as far as I know, the pvp base did, but I'd imagine the same thing happened in pve) and pressured Anet to make them more substantial, which led to further inflation of their importance.

And now, things are spiraled completely out of control.

I agree, I think titles were originally supposed to be an e-peen thing, which is fine for me. A lot of players could care less what others think, we're probably two such players, haha.

But the problem with PvP as you said is that people wanted you to show your rank before taking you on a pug. To some extent, this is understandable, although it was a huge disadvantage to new players trying to get in.

That transitioned over with Nightfall and your rep ranks affecting skills. It escalated in EotN. Groups wouldn't bring others on HM pugs or VQ's unless players could provide a certain rank of whatever track to 'prove' themselves.

But the only thing it was proving was how much time they sank into farming points. It had little to do with skill. You can blast through the games without being above rank 5 or 6 of this or that.

Time =/= skill, but title grinding gives the illusion that it does.

makafri · May 28, 2010, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Here's what I don't understand.

Titles like Drunkard and Sweet Tooth are clearly joke titles that Anet never expects anyone to achieve.

So why even bother? It's not like these grind titles actually matter or demonstrate any sort of skill involved in getting them.

Why bother even trying for them?

OMFGASODJASODAOSJD!!!! XD go play random arenas elite pvp player :P

dancing gnome · May 28, 2010, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokoninja

The problem is that the "Mother Title" in gw includes these joke titles.
I've always, always felt GWAMM/Big Deal should have never included them. This title should have been a meta strictly for things that are achievements / progression based. VQing, Protectors, exploration. Even rep titles.

But GWAMM is important to maxing the HoM and player's Ranks in GWAMM will likely transfer to GW2 in some way, so players need to farm the bullshit titles that are meaningless to skill in this game.

Go figure.

I agree whole heartedly with this and everything you said.

And for the same reasons I posted above, I knew I would never bother with GWAMM because I can't be bothered to sit there clicking booze every 5 minutes or afking 9rings. That's not what I'm about. I don't find that fun. And, I don't find it fair, either.

This is just a general and outdated problem with MMO's in general, though. It's hard to balance making certain achievements difficult to obtain without making them boring / annoying. Money sinks and grinds are the only way MMO's have figured can be used in order to make players 'earn' things, and unfortunately these will always lead to botting / gold farming. Grinding titles in GW, buying gold for epic flying in WoW, etc. etc.

This is why I am looking forward to the Karma system in GW2. It may not completely eradicate the problem but it's a huge step in the right direction. Earning Karma will come naturally with playing the game, and playing in right, and difficult to bull shit through.

Hopefully, anyway.

I agree with almost all your statements, titles should have always been for vanity and the vague GW2 carrot is just pressuring people into getting them.

The difference here is in GW1 Drunkard is simply a title. The benefit it confers onto players is it counts towards GWAMM. Who knows what it will be in GW2 (aside from simply being a vanity item). If it's just "GW1 Drunkard title" I'm fine with not having it. If it's "Kilroy's Everlasting Magical Keg of Awesomeness: Double click to summon 3 drunk dwarven musicians which dance and sing and make pretty fireworks," that sounds like something that's kind of cool and I'd want it. Even if it didn't make me do more damage or run faster, it's kind of entertaining and flashy. If it's a special drunk dance I'd still want it.

I disagree the rep titles are skill based. Anyone can farm raptors until their computer overheats from boredom. That's how you max Asura faction. The faction titles should have been like the Master of the North. Vanquish all areas in asuran territories, do all asuran quests and complete all dungeons in asuran terriroty in HM. Once you've done that you have max asuran title. Instead the game wants you to grind raptors until you hate yourself for playing such a boring game (when the game isn't boring, but the things you are given titles for are).

The GW2 Karma systems sound a lot like an old grind we already have in GW. Think of the War in Kryta. Change the word "War Supplies" into "Karma". Now think of how many times you'll need to escort Courier Falken or complete the wanted bounties to get enough "Karma" to buy 10 Medals of Honor which can be traded for unique goods.

Grind titles should have never been introduced, they were just bad game design to trick players into thinking the game had more content than it did (and effectively funnelled players from doing things they enjoyed and were fun, into doing things that they didn't enjoy and weren't fun because they were the most effective way to reach the ridiculously high title grind goal). HoM rewards for titles was where titles went from being a harmless bad idea, to being a gaping wound on the game which begs people to either accept they won't have them, or bot for them.

Some titles were added for things players were already doing. Things like allegiance faction titles. The difference is, before players would simply play Aspenwood or Alliance Battles for the fun of it and stop when they didn't want to play any more,there was no reason to. Now that there was a title to get losing became a bigger punishment, it slowed down your progression towards that title. Playing for that extra match or two was tempting even when you weren't enjoying it any more because it increased your title. Pretty soon you are playing matches you no longer enjoy because you care about winning and thus brought a build you don't enjoy because it's the optimum build and you just want to drag that little faction bar further along.

StormX · May 28, 2010, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

You gain special things in GW2 for the more stuff you have in your HoM. we don't know what the rewards are, but people still want to fill it up as much as physically possible for the possible benefits you will get in GW2.

If the "reward" turns out to be something shitty like a lame emote or a title I will LOL. I can't see them adding something that will give you a gameplay advantage. GW has always been promoted on the premise of it being skill based, not grind based, so any kind of "benefit" in GW2 will probably be something useless and purely cosmetic. Therefore I don't give a rats ass about HoM, nor do I feel any compulsion to bot for it.

Quote:

Grind titles should have never been introduced, they were just bad game design to trick players into thinking the game had more content than it did (and effectively funnelled players from doing things they enjoyed and were fun, into doing things that they didn't enjoy and weren't fun because they were the most effective way to reach the ridiculously high title grind goal). HoM rewards for titles was where titles went from being a harmless bad idea, to being a gaping wound on the game which begs people to either accept they won't have them, or bot for them.

Some titles were added for things players were already doing. Things like allegiance faction titles. The difference is, before players would simply play Aspenwood or Alliance Battles for the fun of it and stop when they didn't want to play any more,there was no reason to. Now that there was a title to get losing became a bigger punishment, it slowed down your progression towards that title. Playing for that extra match or two was tempting even when you weren't enjoying it any more because it increased your title. Pretty soon you are playing matches you no longer enjoy because you care about winning and thus brought a build you don't enjoy because it's the optimum build and you just want to drag that little faction bar further along.

So a couple of weeks ago I was killing shit in Drakkar Lake, and a friend PMed me saying "what are you doing?" I said, "I'm farming Norn points, this is so boring and I hate it." So she said, "if it's boring then..stop doing it?" And you know what? She was right. If something in the game gets so tedious that it becomes a chore, the best thing to do would be to STOP. Maybe go outside, get some sunlight and fresh air. There's a world outside your house ffs. <---big time hypocrisy on my part but the truth hurts doesnt it

Karate Jesus · May 28, 2010, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Why would you make a bot and sadistically WATCH your character go through something that's boring enough to actually DO?

Derp.

You don't watch. You afk, come back in 12-24 hours and count your money.

dancing gnome · May 28, 2010, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormX

If the "reward" turns out to be something shitty like a lame emote or a title I will LOL. I can't see them adding something that will give you a gameplay advantage. GW has always been promoted on the premise of it being skill based, not grind based, so any kind of "benefit" in GW2 will probably be something useless and purely cosmetic. Therefore I don't give a rats ass about HoM, nor do I feel any compulsion to bot for it.

The majority of titles in GW are grind based, not skill based. If you can get a single 5 win streak in RA you have the ability to max that title. If you can kill a single mob in HM in any of the faction areas, you can max those titles. If you have 10,000 minutes of alcohol, you can max that title. The difference is whether your priorities allow you to persist with boring gameplay objectives long enough to get them while ignoring that you could be playing other game or god forbid interacting with real people. That's why players bot.

Deakon · May 28, 2010, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

To address your general concern, consider the Hall of Monuments, which is set to be the sole transfer of benefits in GW to GW2. In order to get maximum benefits,

It should be obvious that your best chance of filling the Hall of Monuments is to play a lot of PvE, which would make it logical for many people to try and bot so many of those rewards.

So, in your opinion, do you think it was mainly PvP players trying to fill their HoM?

I didn't really know those things about PvP. I started after NF but before EotN. I dabbled a little in PvP, even won a few matches in HA but was so far behind the curve (and have a tempermental ISP) so I never really got into it.

zwei2stein · May 28, 2010, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

...I do have a rare bow which dropped with unconditional stats back in the drake farming days.....

Are you aware that you are richer than pretty much everyone in this thread, including person on ecto-stack-overload screenshot?

(If i had dozen armbrace stacks, i'd make you serious offer ...)

BoxOfCox · May 28, 2010, 06:20 PM // 18:20

I don't think OP grasps how rich some players got from botting farms.

Benderama · May 28, 2010, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Isn't the OP kinda asking, why people PvP? basically the botters want the reward of PvP without spending the time, and the fun you would have in the campaigns

Still Number One · May 28, 2010, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoxOfCox

I don't think OP grasps how rich some players got from botting farms.

They only got rich if they sold the gold and ectos they farmed for real money. If not, those ectos and gold are worth nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benderama

Isn't the OP kinda asking, why people PvP? basically the botters want the reward of PvP without spending the time, and the fun you would have in the campaigns

I think the real question is, "Why do they want the rewards if they find the game too boring to actually achieve them?"

AlsPals · May 28, 2010, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Getting trolled...
Why get the higher paying job rather than the lowbie, long hours one?
Why do people take diet pills/surgery rather than make a lifestyle change?
Why didnt you draw a conclusion before making such a thread?

Simple. People think of the end rather than the means. Instead of doing the footwork(which may be quite boring, in the case of GW titles) they use the most efficient, hands off method. Sure, maybe you dont bother with design decisions you dont particularly like, but thats not the problem. Lame design that leads to some sort of reward means people will come up with equally lame means to get around them, while they partake in other parts they enjoy. I would be all for it if it didnt screw the game economy/PVP matchups. Just like getting Legendary Survivor. Why take weeks slowly creeping around, trying to avoid K.Os and lagspikes(potentially losing days of work down the line to such mishaps) when you can in half a day or better get it, also making time lost negligible in the case of said mishaps. Use logic, man. Dont swim through the creek. Jump over that SOB.

*Darcy* · May 28, 2010, 06:54 PM // 18:54

I have 21 maxed titles and several close to max, but I don't "grind" at them. I also don't use bots to farm the gold for the ones that require items. The titles will be completed when it happens.

Luxon - I do some JQ or AB off and on; vanquish with friends because it is fun group activity. Got the Kurzick one maxed last year.
Sweet Tooth - I'm at 8,190 as of today and just add to it with sweets and sweet buffs as I use them. Drunkard - not interested
EoTN - maxed all the rep titles by playing and vanquishing. No raptor or vaettir farming.

The game is supposed to be FUN. When its not fun, why play?

wilebill · May 28, 2010, 07:32 PM // 19:32

The HoM rewards will not be super armor or uber weapons, nothing useful. Just honorary items.